“Gerade Qualitätsmedien haben Nachholbedarf”
Stereotype Geschlechterbilder, klischeehafte Berichterstattung über Frauen im Sport oder Vergewaltiger, die als „Sex-Täter“ verharmlost werden: Sexismus zieht sich durch die Berichte vieler Medien und hat Auswirkungen darauf, wie wir Geschlechter wahrnehmen. Warum das so ist, haben Elisabeth Auer (Kurier), Gabriele Melischek (ÖAW), Clemens Oistric (Heute), Alexandra Stanic (Biber) mit Sandra Nigischer (Sorority) diskutiert.
Sorority: Die US-Doku „Miss Representation“ beschäftigt sich mit Geschlechterrollen in den Medien und kommt zum Schluss: Medien können Wahrnehmungen verändern und für eine offenere Gesellschaft eintreten. Ein Umdenken des Journalismus hänge aber stark von jenen Menschen ab, die an den Machthebeln sitzen. Sehen Sie beziehungsweise seht ihr ein Problem darin, wie Geschlechter in den Medien repräsentiert werden?
Elisabeth Auer: Im Trailer fällt der bezeichnende Satz: „You can’t be what you can’t see.“ Ich war 20 Jahre als Sportjournalistin und -moderatorin tätig, also in einem Bereich, in dem wir in Österreich einen Frauenanteil von nur rund zehn Prozent haben. Sportjournalismus ist für viele junge Frauen nicht erstrebenswert, weil sie dort auch keine andere Frauen sehen.
Es gibt auch kaum Chefinnen im Sportjournalismus, Männer entscheiden, in welchen Positionen Frauen eingesetzt würden und welche Hebel sie ihnen zugestehen wollen.
Als Sportjournalistinnen haben wir gerade den Verein „Wir Frauen im Sport“ gegründet, der eine Plattform bieten soll für die gegenseitige Unterstützung. Wir sind dabei, eine Faktenbasis zu schaffen. In Gesprächen mit Sportchefs egal welchen Senders heißt es immer: „Ich suche händeringend nach einer qualifizierten Frau, aber ich finde sie nicht!“ Im Verein wissen wir: Es gibt diese Frauen. Diese Ausrede zählt einfach nicht mehr. Es ist wahnsinnig schwer, Systeme aufzubrechen, weil es gerne heißt: „Aber ja, die ist nicht qualifiziert“.
Clemens Ostric: Ich habe das ganz anders erlebt. „Heute“ ist die einzige Tageszeitung in Österreich, die von einer Frau geführt wird. In der Redaktion sind 42 Prozent der Mitarbeiter weiblich. Wir haben neun Ressorts, vier werden von Frauen geführt. Ich denke, ein Repräsentationsproblem haben wir nicht. Wir sind eine junge Tageszeitung, das spiegelt sich auch in der ausgewogenen Besetzung von Frauen und Männern wider.
Ich habe in meinem Berufsleben nie über Geschlecht nachgedacht. Geschlechterverhältnisse sind für meine Generation kein großes Thema mehr. Vielleicht haben aber andere Unternehmen andere Machtstrukturen.
Alexandra Stanic: Aber nur, weil du etwas nicht spürst oder kennst, heißt es nicht, dass es nicht da ist. Dabei glaube ich dir, dass du dir vielleicht noch gar keine Gedanken über Gender machen musstest. Als ich mir mit 19, also vor bald acht Jahren, gedacht habe, jetzt will ich schreiben, habe ich die Impressen verschiedenster Medien durchforstet. Die Erkenntnis: Frauen kommen so gut wie nie in die Chefredaktion, genauso wenig wie Menschen mit Migrationshintergrund. Wir hatten beim Standard eine sehr tolle Chefredakteurin, die jetzt weg ist. In der Branche kann keine Rede von Diversität sein.
Wie schief das Frauenbild etwa im Politikjournalismus hängen kann, haben vor kurzem drei Schweizer Medien analysiert. Sie kommen zum Schluss: Medien beurteilen Frauen härter und anders als Männer. Frauen werden weniger ernst genommen. Auch wir als Sorority stoßen auf massenhaft Beispiele (siehe unten). Welche Botschaften vermitteln Redakteurinnen und Redakteure damit?
Gabriele Melischek: Redaktionen bedienen Klischees und qualifizieren Frauen damit ab. Maßstäbe setzen in der Politik primär Männer: Männer sind kompetent, Frauen sind weiblich. Werden Frauen als kompetent wahrgenommen, gelten sie zugleich als unweiblich. Solche Klischees werden laufend produziert. Es gibt Forschungen dazu, wie es Politikerinnen dabei geht. Eine Umfrage in den USA etwa hat ergeben, dass gleich qualifizierte Politikerinnen nicht eine nächste Karrierestufe anstreben wollen, weil sie sich dazu nicht ebenso befähigt fühlen wie Männer. Diese Unsicherheit wird zum Teil durch solche Bilder produziert.
Elisabeth Auer: Das beginnt schon bei der Beurteilung von Äußerlichkeiten. In Australien hat ein Moderator, um zu zeigen, wie sehr Journalistinnen in Medien nach ihrem Äußeren beurteilt werden, ein Jahr lang dasselbe Sakko getragen. Niemanden ist es aufgefallen. Danach hat er gesagt: „So Leute, reflektiert einmal, was das bedeutet.“ Bei Moderatorinnen wird gerne beurteilt, ob ihre Kleidung nun vorteilhaft war oder auch nicht. Erst danach kommen die Inhalte. Corinna Milborn von Puls4 hat einmal in einem Interview gesagt, sie trage immer wieder dieselben, relativ ähnlichen Anzüge, weil sie mit Inhalt punkten möchte. Zum einen ist das klug, zum anderen kann es einfach nicht sein, dass ich mich einschränke, nur, damit mir endlich wer zuhört.
Alexandra Stanic: Wenn ich mich an Headlines erinnere wie „Nadja Bernhard versext die Wahl“, frage ich mich echt, was denn bitte an ihrem Ausschnitt zu tief hätte sein sollen. Es ist mir ein Rätsel.
Wir haben bei “Biber” das Newcomer-Projekt, das jungen Menschen aus bildungsfernen Schichten und sogenannten Brennpunktschulen mithilfe von Workshops Chancen bietet. Wir zeigen Schülerinnen und Schülern, dass sie mehr können, als andere ihnen zutrauen. Dass sie etwas wert sind. Was wir oft beobachten ist, dass sich junge Frauen selbst hassen, sich verletzten oder hungern, weil ihnen die Gesellschaft suggeriert: “So wie du bist, bist du nicht in Ordnung. Du musst aussehen wie Germany’s Next Topmodel, helle Haare haben und dünn sein. Aber selbst dann bist du wahrscheinlich nicht in Ordnung”.
Clemens Oistric: Die Headline “Nadja Bernhard versext die Wahl” möchte ich aufgreifen, denn das ist in meinem Verlag passiert. Intern haben wir schnell festgestellt: Der Titel war eine Grenzüberschreitung, es war unqualifiziert. Wir haben die Geschichte sofort heruntergenommen von der Website und uns bei Nadja Bernhard entschuldigt. Ich denke, dass in der Hitze des Gefechts – wie im konkreten Fall an einem Wahltag – Schlagzeilen schiefgehen. In unserem Verlag produzieren wir pro Tag rund 500 Geschichten für Print und Online. Ich denke, entscheidend ist, wie man mit Fehlern umgeht. Intern haben Leute bei uns gefragt: „Hey, geht’s noch?“ und es wurde sofort reagiert.
Ich denke aber, dass Schlagzeilen wie „Wie viel Dekolletee darf eine Kanzlerin zeigen” nicht nur Frauen treffen. Medien arbeiten mit Bildern, weil sie sehr stark auf Leser wirken. Ich erinnere nur an den Auftritt von Julian Schmid in der Badehose auf Instagram, den Medien vielfach thematisiert haben. Man kann auch zurückgehen in die 1990er Jahre: Jörg Haider in der Badehose. Ein Foto, das News, glaube ich, an die 200 Mal abgedruckt hat.
Elisabeth Auer: Es ist aber ein Unterschied, ob sich Julian Schmid oder Frank Stronach freiwillig in der Badehose zeigen und posen oder ob ich ein Foto von der deutschen Bundeskanzlerin nehme und den Fokus auf ihre Brüste lege.
Alexandra Stanic: Niemand behauptet, dass Männer nicht auch auf ihr Aussehen reduziert werden können. Es kommt aber wesentlich seltener vor – und wenn, dann meist nicht auf diese sexualisierte Art. Das ist der springende Punkt. Dass Fotos stark auf Leserinnen und Leser wirken, stimmt. Wir erzählen Geschichten mit Fotos, aber wir erzählen auch Geschichten mit Überschriften.
Verfehlungen passieren in den meisten Medien, national wie international, selbst in Qualitätsmedien. Die „Presse“ hat von einer Sportlerin des Jahres 2017 eine Slide-Show gemacht. Inhaltlich ging es um die Leistung, aber der Titel war “Sportlerin des Jahres hat Modelqualitäten” oder so ähnlich. Ist das notwendig?
Gabriele Melischek: Wie lässt sich die Praxis ändern, dass sich Journalistinnen und Journalisten Klischees bedienen?
Elisabeth Auer: Das ist ein spannender Punkt. Beim “Kurier” diskutieren wir in Sitzungen. Deswegen ist es auch wichtig, dass in den Redaktionen jeweils 50 Prozent Frauen und Männer sitzen, damit gibt es ausgewogenes Feedback. Natürlich wird es immer Artikel geben, die nicht jedem passen und die sexistisch sind. Das muss man ansprechen und sagen, das geht nicht. Wenn ich aber eine Redaktion mit einem 80-prozentigen Männeranteil habe, oder in den entscheidenden Positionen überwiegend Männer sitzen, dann wird sich das auch in den Bildern, Headlines oder Geschichten niederschlagen.
Gabriele Melischek: Man müsste also die Strukturen ändern. Im Moment ist es doch so, dass sich Frauen den Regeln und Strukturen der Redaktion anpassen müssen, um überhaupt Fuß fassen zu können. Ein Gleichstellungsplan würde diesen Druck reduzieren, aber auch Medien könnten von mehr Ausgewogenheit profitieren. Eine andere Möglichkeit wäre ein Vier-Augen-Prinzip, bei dem eine Frau und ein Mann eine Geschichte gemeinsam anschauen und reflektieren. Unter Zeitdruck ist das aber oft nicht möglich.
Alexandra Stanic: Auch bei “Biber” waren wir vor zehn Jahren nicht dort, wo wir heute sind, was die politische Korrektheit angeht. Was ich beobachtet habe ist, dass wir reflektieren. Unser Chefredakteur bemüht sich, Dinge zu verstehen, die ihm selbst vielleicht nicht so wichtig sind.
Clemens Oistric: Auch wir reflektieren und wir schreiben seit November bei Vergewaltigungen nicht mehr von „Sextätern“. Wir haben uns zusammengesetzt und gesagt: Sex ist etwas Einvernehmliches, und wenn jemand vergewaltigt wird, ist es unangebracht, es Sex zu nennen. Ich glaube nicht, dass ein Kollege oder eine Kollegin das jemals geschrieben hat, um zu verharmlosen. Da geht es oft um Titellängen. Außerdem ist Vergewaltigung ein juristischer Begriff, der klagbar ist, Sextäter nicht. Das soll aber keine Entschuldigung sein. Vor kurzem gab es auch wieder einen Missbrauchsfall, bei dem ein Lehrer verdächtigt worden ist.
Der “Sexlehrer”.
Clemens Oistric: Genau. So wurde er etwa im “Kurier” genannt, bei uns in „Heute“ war es ein “Missbrauchsverdacht”. Ich glaube, dass wir einen Lernprozess durchgemacht haben.
Wie werden Verfehlungen in Medienhäusern diskutiert? Lässt sich Kritik – vor allem als Frau – offen ansprechen oder gilt man dann schnell als “Sprachpolizei” und pingelig?
Elisabeth Auer: Ich glaube, dass beispielsweise durch die #metoo-Vorfälle gerade eine andere Aufmerksamkeit – auch in den Redaktionen – da ist und viele nachdenken: Wie schreibe ich eigentlich? Passen meine Worte zum Fall, der gerade stattfindet?
Ich habe viel mit Nicola Werdenigg gesprochen, die den ÖSV-Skandal ins Rollen gebracht hat. Sie sagt, es ist schwierig, in der Bevölkerung würde sich jetzt vieles vermischen. Es ist auch Unverständnis da. Was ist Missbrauch? Was ist Vergewaltigung? Dann heißt es wieder: “Na, das war jetzt nicht so schlimm!” Oder: “Da ist ja eh niemand vergewaltigt worden.” In der Kurierredaktion sehe ich niemanden, der sexuelle Gewalt nicht ernst nimmt. Solche Zeiten sind vorbei.
Alexandra Stanic: Also ich nehme mich jetzt gar nicht aus. Ich war vor ein paar Jahren die, die gemeint hat „Gendern? Geh bitte! Das interessiert mich nicht”. Mittlerweile habe ich eine andere Ansicht. “Biber” entwickelt sich ständig weiter und wer weiß, wo wir in fünf Jahren sind.
Kommen wir zum Sportlerinnen-Bild in den Medien. Kobuk hat eine Collage gebastelt, mit einem “Best of” sexistischer Headlines. Der gemeinsame Nenner: Frauen werden sexualisiert. Elisabeth, warum rennt der Laden so?
Elisabeth Auer: Sport ist schlichtweg die Welt der Männer, in die Frauen möglichst nicht hineinpfuschen sollen. Denn da können sie noch richtig Mann sein. Ein gutes Beispiel ist der Österreichische Skiverband (ÖSV), deren Chef Peter Schröcksnadel den Schirennfahrerinnen vor einem Jahr einen Schminkkurs verordnet hat. Damit sollten sie sich besser verkaufen und so sexy aussehen wie Lindsey Vonn. Als dann Kritik aufkam, wurde ÖSV-Frauenbeauftragte Petra Kronberger öffentlich vorgeschickt, deren Idee das Ganze gewesen sein soll. Nur, es war natürlich nicht ihre Idee.
Frauen werden nicht gerne in Wettkampfposen gezeigt, weil “das nicht weiblich genug ausschaut”, kam dann immer. Es hat vor einigen Jahren von Seiten der EU ein Projekt gegeben, bei dem diese Missstände eruiert werden sollten. Mittlerweile ist das Projekt beim vierten Sportminister gelandet. Ob sich Heinz-Christian Strache dem annehmen wird, wissen wir nicht. (Publikum lacht)
Ebenso ein Problem: Es gibt so gut wie keine Frauen, die Fußballspiele kommentieren. Da heißt es immer: Die haben so eine schrille Stimme und wenn ein Tor fällt, fangen sie zum Kreischen an. Männer sind emotional. Frauen kreischen.
Bei Olympia hat Snowboarderin und Goldmedaillengewinnerin Ester Ledecká ihre Schibrille bei Interviews nicht abgenommen, weil sie nicht geschminkt war. Braucht es mehr Frauen in der ersten Reihe, die mutig sind und sagen: Ist mir jetzt wurscht, ich hab Gold?
Elisabeth Auer: Klar. Es ist völlig in Ordnung, die Brille nicht abzunehmen. Schade aber, wenn der Grund dafür ist, nicht geschminkt zu sein. Es gibt im Sport wenige selbstbewusste Frauen. Die Billardspielerin Jasmin Ouschan hat sich bisher immer verweigert, wenn Fotografen und Kameraleute ein „nettes Shooting“ mit ihr machen wollten. Das ist eine der weltbesten Billardspielerinnen, die auch die Männer aufmischt. Sie hat das Selbstbewusstsein zu sagen: Nein, sexy Fotoshootings mache ich nicht – und mich gibt es trotzdem.
Alexandra Stanic: Dass sie ihre Schibrille nicht absetzen wollte, kann ich nachvollziehen, obwohl ich mich als relativ selbstbewusst einschätzen würde. Wir haben von klein auf gelernt, dass Mädchen hübsch sein sollten, sie brauchen lange Wimpern und rosa Wangen. Der Druck ist groß. Das heißt aber nicht, dass wir uns ihm fügen sollten.
Elisabeth Auer: Und dann gibt es die Väter des Erfolges, den Trainer, der hinter ihr steht. Er ist der Erfolgstrainer.
Gabriele Melischek, ist es besonders schwierig für Frauen, in Medien zu bestehen?
Gabriele Melischek: Wir haben das aus der politischen Sicht erforscht. Wir haben einen nur 30-prozentigen Frauenanteil im Parlament. Diesen Stillstand gibt es seit 1999. Davor war in den 90-er-Jahren der Anteil von einem Fünftel auf ein Drittel gestiegen. Wir haben untersucht, welche Rolle Medien bei diesem Stillstand gespielt haben: Damit Frauen in der meistgesehenen Hauptnachrichtensendung des Landes, der “ZiB1”, vorkommen, müssen sie höhere politische Funktionen innehaben. Weil das aber nicht so ist, sehen wir hauptsächlich Männer – ein Grund, warum es für alle auch selbstverständlicher ist, dass Männer die Spitzenpolitik prägen. Wir haben aber auch analysiert: Selbst wenn Spitzenpolitikerinnen im TV auftreten und mit einem gleichrangigen Mann diskutieren, kommt ihnen weniger Redezeit zu. Journalistinnen und Journalisten agieren also nach traditionellen Mustern, anerkennen, dass Politik männlich ist. Es ist noch nicht in den Köpfen verankert, eine Frau so zu behandeln wie einen Mann in einer vergleichbaren Position.
Elisabeth Auer: Was sie sagen, erinnert mich an die journalistische Auswahl von Expertinnen und Experten. In Redaktionen gibt es immer wieder Brainstormings, wen man denn bloß zu einem Thema befragen könnte – und dann werden doch wieder dieselben Männer befragt.
Alexandra Stanic: Letztens bei “Servus TV” in einer Diskussion über den ORF waren wieder ausschließlich Männer geladen. Gibt es niemanden, der erkennt, dass da nur weiße, erfolgreiche Männer über 40 sitzen und niemand auf Diversität achtet?
Clemens Oistric, achtest du darauf, dass du sowohl Männer als auch Frauen interviewst?
Clemens Oistric: In der Chronik werden Themen von der Tagesaktualität diktiert, da kann ich mir männliche oder weibliche Pressesprecher nicht aussuchen.
Grundsätzlich wollen wir aber bewusst Frauenthemen aufgreifen. Wir haben in unserem Ressort zwei Frauen, die sich immer beherzt einbringen und wir versuchen, gesellschaftliche Diskussionen anzustoßen. Zum Beispiel haben wir einen Artikel über das Lokal “Spelunke” gebracht, wo die Kellnerinnen nicht mehr mit “Fräulein” angesprochen werden wollen. Eine Kollegin meinte, das sei eine wichtige Geschichte, die in einem breiten Medium publiziert werden sollte.
Alexandra Stanic: Was sind Frauenthemen?
Clemens Oistric: Kolleginnen schlagen Themen vor, die ihnen wichtig sind. “Frauenthemen” ist vielleicht ein falscher Begriff.
Alexandra Stanic: Ich weiß, du hast das nicht böse gemeint. Aber gut gemeint heißt nicht immer gut. Werden Frauen auch zu “Nicht-Frauenthemen” interviewt und was macht “Frauenthemen” aus? Fashion? Beauty?
Clemens Oistric: In der Chronik haben wir weder mit Fashion noch mit Beauty zu tun. Ich meine Geschichten, die Frauen vorschlagen und die wir dann angehen.
Gabriele Melischek: Wir haben an der Akademie eine Studie zur Qualität der österreichischen Medien gemacht und herausgefunden, dass gerade Qualitätsmedien starken Nachholbedarf haben, wenn es darum geht, Frauen stärker einzubinden. Der Boulevard ist eher am Publikum orientiert und bindet daher auch eher Frauen ein, während sich Qualitätsmedien eher an Eliten orientieren und die dort gegebene ungleiche Rollenverteilung nicht nur übernehmen, sondern noch verstärken. Nimmt man alle Medien zusammen, so kommen Frauen zwar sowohl in den Hard-News wie Politik, Wirtschaft oder Kultur als auch in den Soft-News wie Lifestyle oder Gesundheit vor, in den Hard-News aber im Schnitt nur in jedem siebten Beitrag. Zählt man hingegen die Soft-News dazu, sind Frauen in jedem dritten Beitrag präsent. Das verdeutlicht die gesellschaftlich untergeordnete Rolle von Frauen.
Alexandra, du bloggst auch, hast über 11.000 Instagram-Follower und dir damit eine eigene feministische, intersektionelle Plattform geschaffen. Glaubst du, dass traditionelle Medien hier Publikum liegen lassen?
Alexandra Stanic: Ich genieße diese Bubble. Instagram per se ist ein oberflächliches Medium. Es geht weiterhin um Fashion, Food oder Fitness, was ich kritisiere. Indem ich feministische Themen behandle, die sonst kaum Platz finden, ist eine kleine Community entstanden. Auf Instagram arbeite ich aber nicht journalistisch, vielmehr politisch. Ich denke dort etwa offen darüber nach, wie es sein kann, dass Frauen, die sich im Bikini zeigen, mit Dick-Pics rechnen müssen.
Die eigene Bubble kann einen bestärken. Schlägt dir auch Hass entgegen?
Alexandra Stanic: Immer wieder. Meine Angriffsflächen sind, dass ich eine Frau und auch Migrantin bin – mehr braucht es gar nicht. Twitter ist da eine nicht so nette Plattform wie Instagram.
Zum Abschluss, an welchen Schrauben ließe sich drehen, um eine verzerrte Geschlechterdarstellung in Medien gerade zu rücken?
Gabriele Melischek: In der politischen Kommunikation wäre die erste Schraube die Politik selbst, die auf ausgewogene Verhältnisse achten müsste. Ein Gleichstellungsplan, wie ihn der ORF hat, ist ebenso sinnvoll – aber nicht nur für die Redaktion, sondern auf allen Funktionsstufen und auch fürs Management. Denn gerade da oben ist das Missverhältnis besonders groß.
Alexandra Stanic: Frauen in Führungspositionen wären ein erster Schritt. Außerdem empfehle ich Kolleginnen und Kollegen immer wieder feministische Literatur.
Clemens Oistric: Wir haben eine Geschäftsführerin, das ist schon einmal gut. Wichtig ist, offen auf Kritik zu reagieren und sie zu diskutieren. Fehlern müssen wir uns mutig stellen.
Elisabeth Auer: Das Radikalste kommt zum Schluss: Ich bin für die Quote in allen Bereichen. Wenn man die nicht umsetzt oder angeht, dann werden Förderungen oder sonstige Unterstützungen gestrichen oder eingeschränkt. Freiwillig und ohne Druck wird genau gar nichts passieren.
(Das Transkript basiert auf der Sorority-Podiumsdiskussion Sexismus im Journalismus | No More Bullshit! x Rrriot Festival von 3. März 2018, die Teil des Rrriot Festivals war. Organisiert von Maria Schreiber.)
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